Bike Sense
Bike Sense: the podcast of The BC Cycling Coalition.
Join Host Peter Ladner as he interviews guests to talk about all things related to cycling advocacy, education, and road safety in BC. Listen to stories that can influence changes that make active transportation and mobility safer, more equitable, and more accessible, so we can meet our climate, health, social justice, tourism and economic development goals.
Please visit our website at bccycling.ca to find out more about what the BC Cycling Coalition is doing and how you can join and support us.
Bike Sense
Balance Bikes to Bike Buses: Turning kids on to cycling, for life!
How can we transform young children into lifelong cyclists? Maya Goldstein's innovative Kids on Wheels and School Bike Bus programs teach biking to children as young as age two, and bring out as many as 60 kids at a time to ride to school together. Listen up to find out how you can get your local young'uns on two wheels before car culture takes hold – wherever you live!
Bike Bus resources:
SUPER CUTE Gordon Elementary Bike Bus CoV video June 2023
HUB Bike Bus program (Funded by the BC Provincial Government Ministry of Transportation and Transit)
Parent-led Bike Bus Resources
Portland Bike Buses
Bike Bus World
Check out Maya's Bike Bus musings on Linkedin .
Contact Maya at maya.goldstein@bikehub.ca
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The Bike Sense podcast with Peter Ladner is produced by the BC Cycling Coalition – your voice for safer and more accessible cycling and active transportation in British Columbia.
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Welcome to Bike Sense, the BC Cycling Coalition's podcast, where we talk about all things related to active transportation advocacy in BC. I'm your host, peter Ladner, chair of the Board of the BC Cycling Coalition. I hope you enjoy the show. There's a saying attributed to the Catholic Church that if you can instill beliefs into a child before age six, they will become a convert for life. Our guest today, maya Goldstein, has taken this same approach to cycling, instilling a belief and a practice of cycling into children as young as age two, and she has developed two programs we're going to talk about today. One is Kids on Wheels and the other is a school bike bus program and brought kids into the world of cycling in a way that might never have happened were it not for those programs. Maya, welcome to the podcast.
Speaker 2:Thank you, Peter. Thanks for inviting me. It's great to be here.
Speaker 1:I had the opportunity of riding with you and your husband, gilly, and your two kids now aged 10 and 6, two boys in your bike bus on the last day of the bike to school week last Friday. This is now we're talking about early June and I was reminded it reminded me of being on a critical mass ride because there was a whole swarm of kids all milling around, kind of weaving a little bit, and their parents. Your husband had the boom box going out front and when we came to an intersection there were too many kids to pass. During the time the light was green and we actually stopped traffic. I thought that was quite fun and, of course, other groups were joining us at different intersections along the way. By the time we got to your school it was a big biking party and I thought I imagine you would have been pretty happy at that result. Was that an unusually happy day for you?
Speaker 2:Yeah, definitely Fridays. It's the day that we do bike bus in my kids' school and it's not just a happy day for me. I think it's a happy day for all participants in the bike bus, if it's kids, if it's parents. We also had the school's principal joining us once, a teacher, we had many guests and everyone that started day on the bike bus. Just have the best day after that.
Speaker 1:You can't not well, that's our dirty little secret among cyclists that when you start your day riding somewhere, you you're having a happy day. But before we get to that, I want to go back to Kids on Wheels, which is a program for preschoolers, age two to four, to get them on the balance bikes the very beginning of cycling. Can you tell me how that program works and why you were drawn to start it up?
Speaker 2:drawn to start it up. Yeah, so Kids on Wheels. It's a program for children starting at age two and going all the way to preschool, age four, and even we do in community center till age six. How I got started with Kids on Wheels takes me back to when I did my master's at UBC. I did it in the Faculty of Education and kind of as a side job. I also worked at childcare centers and since I got to see a variety of different daycares and centers.
Speaker 2:What I noticed is that there was a big car culture in many of the classes and outside in the courtyard or where they played, but there was nothing about biking.
Speaker 2:There were no bikes around for them to practice, there were no bicycle toys, there were no books.
Speaker 2:It was all very much car-dominated trucks and that's all the kids kind of got to to be familiar with.
Speaker 2:So I thought that's interesting and also I found it a little bit problematic because I think it should be open to different mode of transportations and as someone who really loves, I could see a huge benefit for kids to start biking as an early age, but also for them to be exposed to it as kind of a daily life, something that you can do as a commute you can go to daycare with your bike, you can go to the beach, you can go to the park. So I developed this program that it's not only for kids to be practicing balance bikes outside, it's also about getting them familiar with the concept of biking as your daily, daily life. So we read books, we do art activities, we have one day, which is really fun, where they get to create their own maps, so places where they can go biking around Vancouver or wherever the program is, and it's really kind of expand their minds of what is doable and what they can do on the bikes and also they impact their families that way.
Speaker 1:Maya, you're talking about being at a preschool and kids learning this as part of their way of being throughout the year.
Speaker 1:But the Kids on Wheels program has evolved or become a one-week program that's offered through community centers and so on, and you had worked for the BC Cycling Coalition in making this happen and now it has expanded somewhat in making this happen and now it has expanded somewhat.
Speaker 1:But it's one of the problems I want to have to feel I have to address is the funding model, because it does depend on external grants.
Speaker 1:We've typically got them from the Canada summer jobs, from the federal government, and the parents only pay I would call it a token amount like 125 bucks or something for a one week of summer supervision, daycare-ish kind of programming. And this has turned into a bit of a problem because this year we have not got all the grants we require at the BC Cycling Coalition and we're having a problem finding ways to finance it. So I'll just put that out there and if there are any listeners who are passionate about this and haven't already heard our fundraising pitches, we'd love to hear from you and have some support from you, because this is the way to make it go. Now, maya, you developed this program so that it can be picked up anywhere in the province or, I suppose, anywhere in the world? Tell me the framework that you offer, that now is offered through the BC Cycling Coalition, which enables, say, a community center or a preschool to pick this up and do it on their own, a preschool to pick this up and do it on their own.
Speaker 2:So there's a lot of ways where people around the province or community center can pick it up. We can offer training. It's not very complicated to learn. A lot of early childhood educators can do it on their own. Everything is child-based and child-friendly and, like I said, a lot of games and a lot of play and kids just love it. The program itself is not very long it's top one and a half hours because we know that the attention span of kids is limited, especially in that age. So we kind of frame it that it fits children a different age, if they're really young and need to nap in the middle of the day, or if they're really young and need to nap in the middle of the day, or if they're very active and need to get their energy out. So it's really kind of perfect for everyone.
Speaker 1:Well, I've mentioned the funding challenges, but what are some of the other barriers? If somebody wanted to do this at their community center or preschool or something I can imagine you'd need to find the bicycles for one thing.
Speaker 2:Yeah. So the bicycles if we want it, through Kids on Wheels, through the BC Cycling Coalition here in Vancouver, we actually provide the bikes. We have the bikes here, we have helmets, we have all of the setup to go so we can come to the daycare and have bikes to every child. We have different sizes, different size helmets. We have the stop signs to set up the traffic garden outside. We have the books. We have all the equipment.
Speaker 2:So some of the challenges are not actually around that part. It's more about the space where they can run the program if it's the outdoor part or a gym and then the storage, because if we come for a week for a child care center, we do want them to store the bike for that period of time. So those challenges are not um, I think we can overcome them easily. We can always find a corner where we can stock the bikes for a week. The advantages here is that the bikes are really small. They're not big. When we think of bikes sometimes we think of adult bikes, but really balanced bikes are very small. So even 20 of them, they don't take that much room.
Speaker 1:Well, what if somebody in Prince George wanted to do this, though, and they don't have access to the bikes that the BC Cycling Coalition has they? How would they go about that? They would have to get their own bikes.
Speaker 2:Yeah, yeah, they would need to get their own bikes or children can are also invited to bring their own bikes. But I think that BC Cycling and Kids on Wheels are now partnered with Strider Bikes so we can offer a package deal for community centers or places that they want to run the program. We're actually working right now with denman island and they're going to get those strider bikes from strider through kids on wheels and they can start their own kids on wheels on denman island. We also worked also worked in Victoria with Pisces and they started Kids on Wheels over there and they got the bikes Also, mostly through Strider. So definitely there's ways to get those bikes and get the Kids on Wheels program started in other places around the province.
Speaker 1:I would assume that the parents have to be pretty closely involved with this. They may be present during the whole time. And what's it been like getting parents who may not be cyclists themselves, or maybe just not that knowledgeable? What's it like getting them involved?
Speaker 2:Yeah, parents, we have two programs actually in the community center. One is parents participation, that parents need to be there. That's more for younger kids till age four, two to four. And then we have a program also for slightly older kids from three to six, and parents are not required to stay. So there's two options.
Speaker 2:But really for the parents if they're not cyclists it's not a requirement. They're not even getting on their bikes for this program. They really just need to be there to be engaged with their kids, to be happy and kind of encourage them and help them. But it's not a whole lot on the parent side but what it does it does do is that the parents feel more confident to get their kids outside with a balanced bike. We practice stopping so they know if they say stop the child needs to listen, because they learned it in the program kids starting to recognize stop signs, they're recognizing crosswalks, so they know not just not to continue. They learn to wait for the parents and I think for some parents this is huge and then they feel more comfortable just letting their kids go out with their balance bike when they're really little.
Speaker 1:This started when you were doing your master's degree in education. Have you done any research? Has anybody done any research on the difference between kids who go through kids on wheels and their later cycling habits, and those who don't?
Speaker 2:Yeah, I don't know if specifically on kids on wheels, but there has been a lot of research done on balanced bike compared to bikes with training wheels and definitely the answer is that balanced bikes are kind of the more natural way to learn how to bike pedal bikes because you really can separate the balancing part from like everything else. So they learn how to balance. So naturally they can move on to pedal bikes without fear because now they learn how to balance. So what we recommend is to move from balance bike to pedal bike.
Speaker 2:Don't go to that training wheel stage because that will set them backwards. Now, if they go back to training wheels, they lost everything that they gained with balance bikes because now they're on these wobbly training wheels. I've seen it with my own kids how they in 15 minutes picked it up from being ready to pedaling, and I've seen it with other kids it's not just my kids like someone who practiced balance bike for a while. They glide, they feel comfortable, they lift their feet. Kids know when they're ready and they will kind of tell you or you'll kind of pick it up and then they'll be ready to go to move on to pedal bikes.
Speaker 1:Well, speaking of moving on, maya, let's we're going to leave that one behind and just again say that the BC Cycling Coalition continues to promote this program. It has all this information available and we'd love to hear from anybody who wants to bring this into the community. But you have moved on to hub cycling and done something again with your own kids. That's turned into a province-wide initiative the bike bus program. How did you get started on a bike bus? What is a bike bus anyway?
Speaker 2:So a bike bus is a group of kids biking to school together, usually on a planned route, on a sent route, with adult supervising, so adults are there to kind of guide the ride and be in the middle, be in the back, but really it's the children who are kind of taking taking the road, taking the lead, taking the initiative and just getting to school. It all it all. It is it's their route, that they do to school but they're on bikes and with they are with friends and they do to school but they're on bikes and they are with friends and they get to connect with friends before school, they get to chat, they get to not be driven to school and it's just really, really fun. And yeah, you need to see it at action to kind of experience it and see how cheerful the kids are.
Speaker 1:I would agree with that and we will have a picture up on the podcast to show that. But in your case, the one I participated in, everybody had to meet at a certain place, so you've got to have a rendezvous place to start and you presumably don't need a protected bike route to do this. You're just out on the regular.
Speaker 2:These were residential streets, but there's the safety in numbers aspect that makes it work yeah, yeah, we start, um, every bike bus start starting stop one, we call it or meet up point, but we do pick up kids along the way. That's kind of what makes it the concept of a bus, uh, that there's stops along the way. Our group is really big right now so we don't officially stop on the ride and kids joining, we slow down, they join, it's kind of they flow together. Kids get very excited. Also, the kids that are waiting in the stop to see the bike bus coming, and also the kids that are riding to see their friends in the corner joining. It's always hi, good morning. How are that are riding to see their friends in the corner joining? It's always hi, good morning. How are you good to see you? And they're just, it's really nice to hear them kind of being so nice to each other and happy to see each other what's the biggest bike bus you've ever been on?
Speaker 2:the biggest bike bus I've been on was the one in portland. I can tell you that story and how I got started, because bike buses are worldwide and Portland really picked it up with coach Sam Balto. I went to that bike bus just before I started my own, so over two years ago. I heard about this bike bus in Portland. This is really how I got familiar with the concept, so I joined the, I took my bike, I took the train down to Portland, met Sam Balto. He's one of the main leaders now in the bike bus movement and just joined his bike bus. It was very similar to what you saw on Friday a group of kids biking to school. Their route was very similar actually not that much longer but so many kids and it was so cheerful. And even though I already had that idea in my mind and kind of started promoting it in my school, that's when it kind of clicked that I have to do it, I have to get it going. It was just so, so, so awesome. But for our bike bus, I think the one last Friday was one of the biggest.
Speaker 2:We have every now and then kind of special events, so that was the end of bike to school week. We've done it in the last two years. The end of bike to school week tends to be big. We also do an Earth Day bike bus around Earth Day. That one typically is big as well. Bike paths around Earth Day that one typically is big as well. And then just the spring is a great time to get a bigger turnout of kids. But we also run it around over the winter and going through rainy days and windy days and everything, the biggest bike path. I think we had over 60 kids riding and it's just so so much fun. And it's so much fun even if you're walking to school because you see that kind of sworn of kids biking and the music and the cheerfulness.
Speaker 1:What does it take to get a bike bus going at a school? If someone wanted to start one up, you would probably, I assume, have to get the cooperation of the school itself, some kind of liability questions, and then a whole lot of parents would have to show up.
Speaker 2:Can you just run us through the different ways that people have to get involved in order to make this work, the different ways that people have to get involved in order to make this work. So, yeah, there's different ways to start a bike bus. The way I run it in my kids' school is parent-led. So, like I said, I had the idea, the initiative, and I took it to the Parents Advisory Council, the PAC Every school has a PAC and kind of asked them what do you think about this idea? At that point I was not involved in the pack.
Speaker 2:I was a parent and one of the reasons I got the bike bus started is because, as a parent and I had one child in the school at that time we didn't feel very connected to our school community. It was kind of post-COVID times and when he started kindergarten there wasn't a whole lot going on in terms of after-school programs, way to meet friends, so we felt we kind of missed on a lot of those social interactions. So that was one of the reasons I got to I got the idea of getting it started. The other one is that we were one of the very few families kind of biking regularly to school and I always came with my son and there were, the bike racks were just empty and it was just. It made me really sad because we we do have good bike racks in the school, so it's not about like where would you leave the bike that some other schools face, it was just, um, I don't know.
Speaker 2:I didn't know what it was, why kids weren't biking to school that much and when, when we got started, we were very few. We have a picture of our first bike bus. We're barely like 20 people there with parents and all that. And then we decided we'll keep it going every Friday. So it's really about keeping it consistent, the commitment and being there and getting other kids and parents excited and involved. But also, when you get it going and you get it started, you see that it's not that complicated and once you're there and you have that commitment, yeah, you can do it every Friday and it's just seeing the excitement. It's just really, really worth it.
Speaker 1:But there are some things that have to happen. You have to have parents who have bicycles who can come along for the ride, so you have to have cycling parents. Was that a? Have you made some parents into cycling parents in order to make this happen?
Speaker 2:yeah, um for sure there's some parents that started biking again thanks to the bike bus. We heard stories about parents saying, oh, I haven't biked in 15 years, but now my kids, they really want to do the bike bus. So we dug up this old bike and made it work and now we bike into school. For some parents, they started biking to work because of the bike bus, because they're already there with their bikes. So it's like, oh, now just biking to work because of the bike bus, because they're already there with their bikes. So it's like, oh, now just continue to work. So it's really it's impacting in so many different levels. It's not just the kids on the bike bus or just the parents, it's also the whole school community. Even if you're not on route or you're not on the bike bus, you just see that excitement. We have kids from different directions that started biking because it kind of normalizes it.
Speaker 1:Do you have kids who walk along because you're not going very fast?
Speaker 2:Yeah, this Friday we had a kid who was running alongside, but we don't usually get kids who are walking. I mean there are kids that are walking that are not part of the bike bus. Walking, I mean there are kids that are walking that are not part of the bike bus. We did have over this winter a couple of times where the roads were just too icy. We had the snowstorm and after that 8th Avenue, where we go, wasn't cleared, so it wasn't safe to get the kids out on their bikes. So instead we decided to do a walking bus or walking school bus, and just started at the same midpoint, went along the same route, we started a little bit earlier to give people more time to walk, and it was really, really fun to just we actually got other kids who don't bike normally, so they joined us for the walk.
Speaker 1:Now you've taken this individual effort and you're now working for Hub Cycling since last fall. Tell me what you're doing and again, I think you've got some funding from the provincial government to roll this out.
Speaker 2:Yeah, since I already mentioned how we did the walk-in school bus just twice this year, I want to mention another program called the Walk-in School Bus that is run by Society for Children and Youth of BC and this is our delivery partner, who we work with and thanks to this provincial funding. And walk-in school bus is the same idea that kids walk together with groups, with supervised leaders, and this program is actually happening in some schools every day. So it's a way for kids to walk to school, to and back from school with supervised leaders, with friends, and get to school by walking.
Speaker 1:When you talk about supervised leaders for these walking school buses, are these paid people from the school or are they parents that have to go through some kind of screening, or how does that work?
Speaker 2:Yeah. So for the walking school buses, they have two models. So one is a parent-led, like we do with parents volunteers, but the other one that's the one that they now started going in Vancouver Island it's paid leaders, so they hire people to walk these kids, and it's really also to give parents a little bit more time, a little bit more freedom, so parents don't have to walk with their kids to school in this program and they don't need to be there at pickup to pick them up. So it's really also about getting some time back to the parents. Some parents find this particular time of day very challenging, so having that option is amazing in some communities, for some parents, for working parents.
Speaker 2:With our bike bus program we have trained instructors that are doing the bike bus programs in schools. They are the ones who are leading the hub cycling bike buses. They are trained, they have their criminal record checked, they have first aid training. They're very, very knowledgeable about working with children and interacting with children. So it's really a great kind of partnership. And to bring everything that hub cycling teaches in schools about road safety and how to behave on the road. This is when they really get to put it in practice, because this trip to school. It's something that they do every day, every single day.
Speaker 1:Is this program available anywhere in BC?
Speaker 2:So it's available now in Metro Vancouver. We have three bike buses running through the program in Vancouver and we have one in South Surrey and then we are working with Capital Bike on Vancouver Island that they have one bike bus started this spring in Saanich and we really hope to get it more province-wide and into the interior hopefully the north in the next school year.
Speaker 1:And is that up to you to do that, or do you expect somebody to contact Hub Cycling and ask to be involved?
Speaker 2:It's really I don't have a defined answer right now. Right now our goal is to continue with Capital Bike on Vancouver Island to get them to do one or two more bike buses and then hopefully maybe in the spring we can get it into other places. We really need a community partner to do that. What I learned through this program is that basic knowledge is key when we do our route planning. Even when we did the one for Surrey, I don't know South Surrey at all, so we really needed that key parent volunteer to help us with the mapping where it would make sense to do the bike bus.
Speaker 2:And I went to South Surrey actually last week to join that bike bus and it was just amazing for me to see all the work we have done, kind of put it into action and see, oh, this is the route, this is what I saw like on Google Maps or Google Earth. This is how they do it and it's been two months since they started, so not that long. But everyone knows exactly what they're doing. The parents know where they need to crop, the parents know where they need to crop, the kids know where they need to be. They have like a few groups like us joining along the way and they know to wait and then kind of join for the bike bus, so it really can work everywhere.
Speaker 1:Well, I would assume that there would be some organic growth to some parent who heard about it at another school or their kid moved to a different school and they wanted to get it going. Has that happened where you don't even have to be involved and the parents just figured it out and made it happen?
Speaker 2:Yeah for sure.
Speaker 2:Even before I started this role at Hub Cycling as the bike bus manager, I got contact a lot from other parents, from other schools.
Speaker 2:That's really what also got me to talk to Hub Cycling or to other organizations about running a bike bus program, because I saw that there was really a need and what parents or teachers or whoever wants to start a bike bus what they really need is that initial support. They're they're a little bit lost with how to to get it started. But once you get them through the the stages and how it works and once they get it started, like I say, many of them realize it's not that complicated. It does require commitment and it requires community efforts, but they can, they can, they can run it. And the idea also with our hub cycling program is that eventually it will pass on to the parents to continue the effort on their own and then we can use our resources to get other schools started to get more kids biking. And definitely it's like a snowball effect More kids want to join because they see their friends and more schools want to join because they see other schools doing it.
Speaker 1:I assume some of the information about starting these up is available online through the Hub Cycling website.
Speaker 2:Yes, yes, yeah, we did put resources for parents-led bike buses to help more schools and more municipalities to get bike buses started.
Speaker 1:I'm going to ask you the same question as with the kids on wheels. Is there any data that shows that kids who, for example, start riding to school on the bikes through the bike buses or walking through the walking school buses?
Speaker 2:continue doing that when the supports are taken away and they get older. One of the interesting, I think, studies around that is around actually activism and how children feel empowered that they do something around climate change, that this is how they can contribute to their environment. It starts small, it starts with one day a week when they're biking to school, but it's really something that they feel ownership about. It's also about good connections, not just with the school community but with your school, like you're getting to school First of all, it was your choice. You brought yourself to school. You biked yourself to school First of all. It was your choice. You brought yourself to school. You biked yourself to school. You weren't driven, you weren't like taking from point A to point B in like a close space. You made that decision. You're back to school and you're like we said, your whole day will be better if you started it with biking and being with a group of friends.
Speaker 1:Something that occurs to me, a benefit of this which I discovered with my own children when they were in elementary school. At one point they wanted to do a field trip to one of the Gulf Islands, but it required all the kids to have a bike and the bike had to be in working order. So the school organized a mechanics day where you could bring your broken down bike and they'd oil the chain and get it all working. And I would imagine once a kid has been up on a bike bus, now they have a working bike and they can start to do whatever they do on a bike and ride around and have fun with each other. Have you found that to be the case?
Speaker 2:Oh yeah, definitely so. Now because we have more bikes and more kids biking to school. Many kids stay after school and all they want to do is bike around the school. In our school these last few weeks we also have the school streets program, so we have a closed block outside just in front of the school with no traffic before and after school. So it gives kids a little bit more of extra space where they can practice their skills.
Speaker 2:On Fridays we have bike ramps that we put outside and they can practice, you know, a little bit more of this risky play and going on the bike ramps and going up and down. It makes the whole experience of school a lot more fun. And for kids who are having a hard time at school, this is really exciting because this is something that connects them with other friends outside school and also connects them with friends who are not necessarily in their classrooms. So for children who might be struggling socially in their classrooms, then they get the opportunity to connect with kids who are biking, not in their classes, but they have something in common right off the bat they are biking. They don't need to talk much, they don't need to interact that much, but they are biking around, they're going fast, they're having fun. It's just really, really great to see that.
Speaker 1:Wow, it's a very heartwarming story, Maya. Is there anything? I think we have to wrap it up, but is there anything else you'd like to add that we haven't covered?
Speaker 2:One of the stories I want to mention in terms of infrastructure, of doing with our own bike bus.
Speaker 2:If you notice that intersection, when you said McDonald's and when our group started to grow last year, we noticed that we don't have enough time to cross that intersection. So I contacted the city of Vancouver and I asked them to add a few more seconds to that intersection and it wasn't just around the bike bus, because this intersection is close to the library, it's close to the supermarket, there's a lot of seniors that cross that road and it was just not enough time even if you're walking. So I gave them all those reasonings and they were very open and supportive and over the summer they worked on that and a few weeks after we got the bike bus started in this school year they increased our timing and it's been amazing. It just makes the difference if you have a few more seconds to cross that and I really hope that with our hub bike bus program we can get those changes into other routes where children are walking and biking to school, to just make it safer for everyone.
Speaker 1:Well, as with so many conversations about cycling, this one circles back to the need for safe infrastructure, because, although there is safety in numbers in the bike bus, you can go down and, let's say, any street with a whole bunch of kids and everybody's going to make way and give room. When those kids are out on their own.
Speaker 1:It's not the same, and I not only would I'm sure they learn that, but then they would be looking for safe places to cycle other than just around the schoolyard yeah, definitely we will continue our campaigning for that, as I'm sure you will, and these kids, hopefully, will become ambassadors for cycling in a way, and they and their parents will be demanding more safety along the lines of what you just described at that intersection.
Speaker 2:Yeah, and I hope that we'll get to a point actually where bike buses are not needed, that we can do them because they're fun and it's a great community connection, but that kids feel safe enough and parents feel safe enough that they can let their kids biking or walking to school on their own.
Speaker 1:Well, thanks so much, maya, for all the good work you're doing and your example that you're setting and the guidance that you're providing everybody else and I would encourage anybody listening to step up and do the same. Do more, make it happen, because, as you've said, there are so many benefits and there's just a lot of happiness and community building and all that good stuff. So, thanks so much, maya.
Speaker 2:Thank you, peter, thanks for having me here.
Speaker 1:You've been listening to Bike Sense, an original podcast from the BC Cycling Coalition. If you like the podcast, we'd be grateful if you could leave us a rating. On whatever platform you use, you can also subscribe so you don't miss future episodes. If you have comments or suggestions for future episodes, email me at peterladner at bccyclingca. You can help us amplify BC Cycling Coalition's voice by simply becoming a free member at bccyclingca. Thank you.