Penticton: the city that banned discussion of bike lanes

The City of Penticton gained infamy when  its City Council tried to ban discussion of bike lanes until 2026. One  Councillor's political about-face almost stopped the bike lanes, but a clever amendment and determined advocates got the project back on track.

Matt Hopkins tells the story of how four friends and their farmers' market bike valet kick-started cycling improvements in Penticton. Now, the 6.5 km  Lke-to-Lake route is nearing completion.

To get involved contact Matt at  urban.director@bikepenticton.com

Transcript

SPEAKER_00: 0:05

Welcome to BikeSense, the BC Cycling Coalition's podcast where we talk about all things related to cycling advocacy, education, and safety in BC. I'm your host, Peter Ladner. I'm the chair of the board of the BC Cycling Coalition. I hope you enjoy the show. Today I'm talking with Matt Hopkins, who's the Urban Cycling Director for the Penticton and Area Cycling Association. And we called Matt because we read somewhere that Penticton Council had passed a motion to ban discussion even of separated bike lanes until 2026. That got my attention. But before we get to that, I'd just like to start on a slightly higher note and uh say, welcome, Matt, and uh glad to have you with us. Thanks for having me, Peter. Thanks for reaching out to me. I appreciate it. And just to say that I've been to Penticton. I've ridden in the Grand Fondo several times. It's a wonderful town for riding in. And of course, it's the home of the Iron Man Canada. Is it still happening? I know it was off and on, and is it back on again?

SPEAKER_01: 1:20

It is. Yeah, it it is. It's back in Pentikton. I mean, we've had issues with weather and smoke and things, but and um it did get canceled this past year, if I'm not mistaken, due to wildfires and in the area. But it is back in uh a matter of speaking, and they intend on having it in future years here in Penticton, absolutely, and uh and a long history of a bit as well.

SPEAKER_00: 1:42

Do you know the date that it will be on this year?

SPEAKER_01: 1:46

You know, I don't have it offhand. It's usually the very last weekend in August. Um, so it's it's right around the end of the summer, is is typically when it happens.

SPEAKER_00: 1:57

And that would involve the the Iron Man is 180k ride. Is that is that what it is?

SPEAKER_01: 2:04

That's right. Yes, there's uh there's a full marathon of running, and they're in the water in Okanagan Lake for quite a while. I don't know, that might be a couple kilometers.

SPEAKER_00: 2:14

Well, I also wanted to just say that the city of Pentikton, if you go onto their website, is very proud of their cycling infrastructure. And uh here's a quote: whether you're looking for some intense training or leisurely touring, Pentikton can offer you the ride of your life. And so I was getting a little bit of cognitive dissonance when I was reading this and thinking about your council's work. But tell me the work that you've done with the cycling association and some of the successes that you've had first.

SPEAKER_01: 2:47

Sure. So I um a little bit of my history here is I moved to Penticton with my wife um from Vancouver. We moved here around the end of 2014. And uh living in Vancouver, I could go into the history, but I got really used to riding my bike in Vancouver. I'd ride my bike to work over the Burard Street Bridge, get to work. My my wife used to ride from 7th in Cyprus to St. Paul's Hospital every day. So we I was used to riding a bike for a lot of different things in Vancouver. And moving here in sort of the start of 2015, it was very quickly I came here without a car, and just the idea of getting from where I was staying to the grocery store was crazy. I mean, it was just I was just not used to riding a bike in those types of conditions. So, you know, how that sort of manifests itself, I didn't have a history in cycling advocacy, but when I started here and started asking questions, I mean, you live in a small enough community that I can you can get in touch with the mayor. I mean, I remember sending an email to the mayor, a gentleman by the name of Andrew Jacobite at the time, and kind of trying to figure out what is going on with the cycling infrastructure here and why isn't there any? And um, so so that led me to um basically, you know, towards I think the end of start of 2018, a few of my friends got in a room and we kind of tried to figure out what we can do to move the idea of cycling infrastructure forward in Pentick. And a group of four people, we really didn't have any influence. I mean, we had no one on council, we didn't, we were just four people that didn't have a lot of influence on public policy. And one thing that we came to is we thought, why don't we start a bike valet at our farmers market? I mean, you know, that was another thing that I was used to in Vancouver. So essentially, four of us started uh a bike valet at the farmers market here every Saturday and start of 2018, and that's sort of where where the advocacy started and sort of where the snowball started to happen, sort of packed that snowball and started pushing it down the hill, I guess was the the turning point.

SPEAKER_00: 4:50

Well, interesting you mentioned that because I I'm gonna put a plug in for the BC Cycling Coalition. We're about to uh administer a province-wide bike valet award grant, a granting um giving money to community organizations that put these bike valets together on the understanding that bike valets can trigger people to take a bike when they otherwise would have taken a car. Was that your experience at your bike valet?

SPEAKER_01: 5:18

Oh, 100%, 100%. I mean, we went, you know, we started and we would go to this far. I'd go to the farmer's market. I mean, it's very popular for any of the listeners who've been to Pentecostin. And um, you know, we'd see seven, eight, nine, ten bikes, and we just came with a few racks and a couple of people. And, you know, one week we had 10, the next week we had 20. You know, by the middle of the summer, we're parking 100 bikes a week. So it was such a simple, powerful thing that a few people could do without the influence of of um of being able to influence street design and things, that the uh the example of the bike valet was such a powerful thing in terms of um, I know we're gonna probably speak more about our Lake to Lake bike route, but it was really the example for us of build it and they will come. And you know, before that time, people would say to me, Why would why would we build a bike lane or why would we build bike facilities? Nobody rides a bike. And so it it really, I guess it got it did a few things. It showed that people wanted to use their bicycle for transportation because once we sat there and we had myself and a friend of mine sitting there every week watching people's bikes, we saw the amount of people coming down on bikes flourish. Um, but it also it also galvanized support for the idea of moving forward or the the political support for some all ages and abilities facilities. And it got together people um that had that interest. And, you know, I think also too, one thing that really stuck with me that first year is how many people not only told me about um their experiences of getting uh their bike stolen, but getting hit on their bike or you know, being a victim in a crash or someone not seeing them on their bike. And so that really stuck with me as something that was so powerful because I've that's never happened to me, but I can appreciate getting hit on your bicycle and what that feels like and the and the the psyche to want to get out on your bike again, so and the barriers that that brings for folks. So I think those were some of the early experiences that really stuck with me from our bike valet.

SPEAKER_00: 7:33

So you mentioned the lake to lake route. Uh tell us about that. Is that something that this particular group worked on? Uh, did it get picked up by your local council at some point?

SPEAKER_01: 7:43

That's exactly right. So, what happened, Peter, is after our year, we did uh 2018, we did the uh bike valet at the farmers market. I think we operated it around 20 times, we probably parked a thousand bikes. And so the start of, you know, we've been talking with folks at the city. Like I said, I sent an email to the mayor the years previous, had started discussions with uh city staff, uh politicians about our intentions. And one thing that we we found out is this is before my time in Pentikton, but Penticton basically passed a bike plan in 2012. Uh basically an idea of a bunch of connected routes that they would lay out over the city map. And, you know, when they tried to start implementing these things, there was a lot of pushback, there wasn't any political support, there wasn't anyone uh like a cycling advocacy group really pushing this forward. So, you know, towards the end of 2018, we pitched a council and said, hey, look at the success of this bike valet. You should be starting this all ages and abilities route as this was part of the 2012 bike plan. We think there should be a lake-to-lake route that goes through the middle of Penticton, that's linear, uh, and that supports um, you know, all ages and abilities and to form sort of a spine of a network. So, you know, we asked for that, them studying that again, and also just additional bike racks all around Pentikton because you know, we found so many people talking to us about their experiences parking bikes in Pentikton and getting bikes stolen. So even just simple rocks that needed to be installed all over Pentikton. So start of 19, that was sort of when the lake to lake got back on the table here in Pentikton from a political standpoint. And um, it was from uh a pitch that we made at a committee the whole meeting, end of 2018, start of 2019.

SPEAKER_00: 9:40

For those people who are not familiar with the geography, can you just describe from what lake to what lake and how far is that? And it goes through right through the center of Pentikton?

SPEAKER_01: 9:49

So Penticton is between two lakes. The one end, the north end of Penticton is Okanagan Lake, the south end of Pentikton is Skahaw Lake, and it's a really pretty much a flat bike ride between the two lakes. It's probably about six kilometers. It might be a little bit less, is the Crowflies, six, six and a half, somewhere in that range. So it's really an area that many, many people would be able to get from one end of town to the other on a bicycle. Um, but the engineering of the roadways is just such that it's not comfortable for, you know, what does Gil Pen Penelosa say? Like, unless you're 30 and athletic. Like that was the only types of people that would be happy riding a bike from one end of town to the other. And and we'd had we'd had some, I don't know if I call it infrastructure, but we had we did have a bike lane that went from one end of town to the other through a street called Government Street that's a a busy arterial um with paint and it was some dedicated space, but no protection. And it was really a circuitous route, like it went around a lot of the main amenities of Pentikton. It was uh almost like a little bit like a ring road. So what we were really focused on is something that is straight, that gets you through the middle of Penticton and connects with amenities, grocery stores, malls, the doctor's office, things like that.

SPEAKER_00: 11:12

Terrific. Well, keep an eye out for those bike valet grants that we'll be administering over the next year. And uh it sounds like you're a prime candidate for getting one, having a proven record of it.

SPEAKER_01: 11:24

You know, I appreciate that, Peter, but I should tell you is that after five years, we've passed our our bike valet off to the city, and the city is going to fund it and run it more often. So basically, what happened is we got I got to the end of last year, and I'd done it for five years. We had a couple of staff. We wanted to make the thing bigger. Like it, I want it to be at our Pentick and V's hockey games, I want it at our stadium for any of the concerts, I want it at Peach Fest every night. Uh, the issue for us was funding, and it's funny as you say. And I looked at, of course, I just copy everything that I learned when I lived in Vancouver, but I looked at the folks in Vancouver that started, and they gave me this beautiful um guidebook when I started, even just down to things like where to buy bike racks. It was amazing. But anyway, I know that their business model was obviously they go to BC Place or something, and BC Place pays them because it's$40 to park and people ride a bike. Well, my view is that in Penticton, we couldn't offer uh as a business, no one would pay us enough to pay our staff because the city floods the market with parking everywhere. Like there's just too much parking, it's too cheap. Um, and so it there isn't that intrinsic value. So basically, I said to the city is that, hey, you guys are spending so much money on all these parking lots, you spend nothing on bike parking. Like, why don't you take this bike valet? I'll give you all our supplies and offer it more. And so it was shocking, but they did. So, what they're gonna do is they're gonna run it with their environmental sustainability folks. So they have like a little environmental sustainability outreach group, um, usually like summer co-op students. And so they're gonna take our bike valet to all their events. So they're gonna run all the events at our what that we did at the farmers market, and they're gonna take it to Peach Fest, and they're gonna take it to other, many of the other festivals and things here in Penticton this coming year. So, you know, you talk about like things to be excited about. Like the idea that I sat there in the city of Pentikton meeting with the general manager of infrastructure, and I pitched this, and she said, Yeah, we'll do that. That's a great idea. I it was shocking, but it happened, and here we are. So um I I mean I could talk about Bike Valet for a year straight and probably not take a breath, but that's it's exciting. I mean, you know, to see to see this thing grow and uh and um yeah, it's amazing. So that's where we're at with Bike Valet.

SPEAKER_00: 14:01

So let's fast forward to today. You had the plan, um, it's that you you had a route, and how how much is built out now? Where does it stand now?

SPEAKER_01: 14:13

Yeah, so so this was so they probably went through a year and a half of um engagement, and the city council of the day, this was towards the end of 2020, I believe, made it made a decision and they approved the Lake to Lake route. Now, the devil is in the details, and so what happened with the route is for funding reasons, they decided not to build it all at one time. They decided to have it in four phases. Um, and the really the main reason the the council of the day decided that was to essentially make the route building as inexpensive as possible, and they were able to apply for grants, and because the the route essentially was almost and still is in a in a four-year period, always almost in a shovel ready or construction phase, they were going to be constantly able to apply for grants. So answer your question, they started the route building down at the north end of Pentikton on Okanagan Lake and through the downtown. They've gone all the way uh north through the downtown of Pentikton uh and basically to a street called Kinney Avenue. So I would say it's two-thirds done. Um, and the last section is set to be complete this year in 2024. So, you know, it's taken, it's unbelievable, kind of unfortunately, you know, looking at how long some of these things take. And I go back to those times of, you know, sitting there at this bike valet in 2018 six years ago, and and we are going to get that project finished, but it's certainly taken some time.

SPEAKER_00: 15:48

I will refrain from commenting on the fact that no road project has ever been built in sections where one part of the road is there and then we wait for a while and then build the next section. But leave that aside. Now we get to the point where this uh uh some one of your counselors uh apparently I'm gonna get you to get this right, but counselor Boltby, I'm gonna name her, call her out. She said, let's not spend the money. We've got and I mean there are legitimate tax issues in every municipality. I've been a city councilor, I know what that's about, but she felt that uh we should save some money, and this would be the way to save it. And I just want to quote something that she was quoted as saying in the newspaper the overwhelming sentiment is that bike lanes have not been good for our community, and there is no appetite to see them expanded at this time. So what impact did her decision have or her motion have, and is that correct?

SPEAKER_01: 16:52

Well, I mean I guess luckily for us, number one, her motion failed. Um it failed four to four or I guess four votes to three. And what was the motion exactly? The the mo the her motion was to um basically not finish the bike route. So again, I go back to what I was saying earlier about this bike route is a vision of a lake-to-lake route. Okay, it was approved. Then the council went and said, yeah, we approve it, but we're gonna build it in in sections, kind of like you referenced before. So before Councillor Boltby was in power, they built three out of four sections of this bike route. And as you said, it's it's a vision of an entire route. So uh one of the things that um that frustrated me as an advocate, I think, and part of her motion, if you if you look at what she was saying in the paper in that time, is not only, I mean, I can speak to the the interest of this cycling facility as a whole, but her even her idea of at that time she was talking about wanting numbers on how many people are using it, and and she's was talking about, you know, before we finish this thing, we should really look and see how many people are actually using it. And of course, uh, someone like me, that drives me absolutely nuts because we never had a vision of a route that is partly completed, you know, and and so I I think um to me it was in bad faith.

SPEAKER_00: 18:20

I am reminded of the the old saying that uh why should we build a bridge across that lake? There's nobody swimming showing that they needed to get across, so we obviously don't need a bridge.

SPEAKER_01: 18:30

Yeah, that's right. So, so you know, and and and I think so that was bothersome to us. And you know, it I guess it started something, and and I I don't doubt that as a politician, um, you know, I'm not a politician, so I don't maybe understand it as well, but there's certainly people in the community, there's no doubt, that don't want this facility, don't like it, and it's a hot button issue, and it has been, unfortunately. So if you're a politician, it can be good for you politically to take a side on an issue like this for political reasons. It helps uh Councillor Boltby. I mean, she's got a lot of press out of it. I mean, you and we're talking to you right now, Peter, from Vancouver. So, you know, it it it that's been challenging. I I think the the last thing I would I would say about the there's no appetite for the route. I I think to me that's farcical. Um, you know, and now we have route data, even from even from like essentially, like I said, it's a two-thirds finished bike route. It's a it's a it's a house being built with just a foundation, and we're already seeing some nice usage of our route. And and I talked to uh CBC about this a couple months ago, but I mean, at you know, at at the at the corner of Eckert and Martin Street, which is kind of at the end of tail end of our downtown, we've had a 99,000 people that went through through the bike route in 2023, and some of the other counters, you know, we've had 60,000, 70,000 people go through. So I think that's nice that we're finally starting to see some of that on the on the usage side. Um that that's been helpful. I I think the other thing too, and the other thing too that that I'll gonna touch on that I don't think the council realizes and that is important to me. And you know, when I started doing cycling advocacy and I was riding my bike across the Burard Bridge, I was someone who was living in Vancouver, I was in my 20s, I wasn't making a lot of money, I certainly didn't own a car. There was it was really important for me to use a bicycle because I could save$110 on my transit pass. And so, you know, I look in Pentikton, and obviously I'm a little bit older now and doing a little better personally, but I still remember those times. And I think you look in Pentikton and you go, the median household income here is$17,000,$18,000 below the provincial average, and the rents are extremely high and housing costs are high. It's a cost of living issue that unfortunately is not being addressed. And I think it perhaps that comes from a place of privilege of folks that have never had to struggle or have always been able to afford owning a car, but it's really, really expensive. And and so that's something that I think about constantly.

SPEAKER_00: 21:25

Well, in fairness to Councillor Bolpey, uh uh again, having been a politician, if there are people in the community who feel that way, it's fair fair for her to be representing them. They should be represented on council. But the question is whether the reasons for decisions are valid or just uh a way to foment anger and division. And I think I was at a conference this morning talking about EVs and all the money into subsidies and the charging infrastructure. And that is another affordability issue. The same conference they said the biggest issue for young people thinking to move to a town is affordability, way more than anything else. And I think the affordability of cycling is often overlooked. It's seen to be something frivolous or recreational, but as you say, for some people, it's a way of it's a it's their way to get around and save money and and survive in the world. And then of course they should be safe if they're trying to survive.

SPEAKER_01: 22:21

Yeah, I exactly. And and um, you know, I mean, you look at the the uh you know, a good segment of the folks uh that are riding bikes right now, it's it's not to make some sort of political statement or an environmental movement, it's about being able to get from point A to point B and how can they do that effectively and inexpensively, and I think it's it's such an incredible tool for that.

SPEAKER_00: 22:47

Now, I also read that the motion uh without I guess getting into the weeds on this thing, the motion uh was specific that there there would be no more discussion about bike lanes with a concrete barrier separating them from traffic, but you've managed to build some bike lanes since then, grade separated, which unfortunately turned out to be way more expensive, but they don't have the barrier, so they don't break the rule. Is that correct?

SPEAKER_01: 23:14

Yeah, so so essentially what has happened is there's been there's been two different motions to stop the bike lane. The first one I talked about was probably about a year ago, wanted to stop it at Kinney Avenue, not move south. Then the one that you're referring to, um Counselor Boltby brought a motion about literally not talking about bike lanes till, like you said, 2026. And yes, so since that time, um basically what happened is that in that discussion, so Councillor Boltby brought a motion forward saying no discussions of bike lanes until 2026. That motion in the council got massaged to no uh bike lanes with concrete barriers. And so it was so I mean is that's okay. As crazy as that sounds. So you're right, Peter, in that shortly after that, there was a project to uh rework a street called Eckert Avenue. So, I mean, you'd be familiar with these in Vancouver, your time as a counselor. They have a bunch of underground services that need to be fixed. They got to go in, dig up the road, anyways. When they go to fix, when they go to replace that street, they build it to a higher standard, a safer standard, a more of a complete street. So Eckert Avenue is going to get rebuilt with the grade separated bike lanes because that's not a quote unquote concrete barrier. And that's an important uh street for us because that route, that facility, it's an east-west route. Uh, it will connect directly into our north-south lake to lake bike route. And Eckert Avenue connects also directly with the Penticton High School, as well as a connection to the KBR Trail. So you could connect from our Lake to Lake route via uh this Eckert Avenue, which is going to be finished in 2024, and ride your bike out the KBR out to Kelowna.

SPEAKER_00: 25:17

That'd be the Kettle Valley Trail.

SPEAKER_01: 25:19

Yes, exactly.

SPEAKER_00: 25:20

Yeah. Well, it sounds like, in spite of it all, you're you're making some progress. Has there been any upsurge in support for your side since this controversy erupted?

SPEAKER_01: 25:33

You know, I that's a very that's a good question. I think, you know, I would say yes. I mean, I think we're buoyed, like I said, by the fact that we've had a count the cities had counters on their routes on our bike lake to lake route, and now we're seeing lots of people use it. You know, the one thing I would touch on about advocacy is um, you know, we're a small bike club, you know, that mostly has a history in uh mountain bike trail maintenance. I mean, I came on four or five years ago with this interest, and the directors and the president at the time really encouraged me to sort of move forward and with this the backing of the club. Um, but I I think we're not really necessarily um in the best position to, you know, fight endlessly with counselor counselors that have an endless amount of time to focus on these. I mean, we certainly had a tremendous push, you know, at the end of 2020 and through sort of a year and a half public engagement period to get this thing approved. That was huge. But for us to constantly fight for every single motion, it's it's it's not the easiest thing for us to do. Like, I'll give you an example. Like this thing where Councillor Boltby originally about a year ago wanted to stop the progress of the bike route, you know, that came out in a council brief that was came out on a Friday afternoon, and there was gonna be a vote on her motion on Tuesday. I mean, we we're a small bike club, you know, with one halftime employee. So it it's tough, it's been tough for us to fight some of these things and sort of put our best foot forward. But I I agree with you 100% in that, you know, our Lake to Lake route is gonna be done this year. That is, it really is gonna be an incredible achievement. I mean, I I think of I guess I go back to myself and my experience riding in Vancouver and how I started. And, you know, I think about the Berard Bridge, right? And I think, man, people before me that got involved and and moved that thing forward, and there's a bike lane on the Barard Bridge, like that's why I'm here today talking to you. So I think of that myself, and I think of five years down the road in Pentecost, and what this thing's done, and people can get places, and the um, you know, I think that's when for us the dominoes start to fall and and you know, we build bigger and better and more.

SPEAKER_00: 27:56

Well, Matt, you've you've talked about the Briard Bridge. When it was proposed originally, people said, who will ride their bike over there? There's nobody riding their bike. It is now considered to be the busiest bike lane in North America. So I'm looking forward to the Penticton route becoming the biggest, uh, most popular route in the interior of BC because as you say, with the Kettle Valley Rail connection and your all your major cycling tourism events, which I would assume would have the support of your wine industry and your tourism industry and your chambers of commerce, I I think that's right. You're gonna get through this thing, and I think the work that you've been doing is really gonna be rewarded.

SPEAKER_01: 28:35

Yeah, I I think so too, Peter. I mean, we're we're really, really proud of it. I mean, I, you know, I and you or or other folks would have a better idea of this. And you know, you see other things that are going on in and around BC, and you you see what's going on. Like I go to Victoria probably once or twice a year, and it's just amazing to see what's going on there. And I think things like that really give you um, you know, a lot of hope. And, you know, for us, I mean, I don't know, maybe there are other places, but for us to have a route that's gonna go from one end of town to the other is I I really do think it's gonna be transformative. It's gonna obviously take some time, but we just seeing the finish of it now is is so incredibly rewarding.

SPEAKER_00: 29:18

And another thing that you haven't mentioned, but I am sure is going to happen, is that there will be a reduction in congestion if kids can ride their bikes to school on a safe route. They don't have to be sh taken there by their parents in a car and jamming up the roads. And I think people will see that benefit too.

SPEAKER_01: 29:34

I I and you know, that's so as a cycling advocate advocate, I look about, you know, try to think what is my next project going to be. And I I think about safe routes to school all the time. And, you know, now I'm a parent and I have a you know, I have a son in grade one, and I look at that, uh you know, I live on basically across the street from his school, but I look at that school and there's 125, 130 kids there, and I only see two or three bikes in that rack, and that's That's I go, that that's not right. The the adults in the room need to fix this. And so, yes, I agree with you in that that I mean, when you see that, it's I mean, it's it's transformative. And and I agree, that will certainly help us get kids moving, get people active for sure.

SPEAKER_00: 30:20

Well, fantastic. And uh I hope you have the same success with uh safe streets to school and whatever else new one you take on.

SPEAKER_01: 30:28

Yeah, you know, I appreciate that.

SPEAKER_00: 30:30

And I look forward to coming up and and trying this stuff out. I gotta say, as a as a one as a potential tourist, the the idea that you have those bike routes there, that's appealing to me. I think, oh good, I can go and noodle around on my bike and not get run over by a truck.

SPEAKER_01: 30:43

You know, when it's funny you say that, because you touched on that earlier, and one thing that I heard from I've met with the tourism board here previously about these ideas, and one thing they're still using and that they love, and this guy that runs the tourism board was talking about is they have this whole campaign about fuel-free. And he has this whole vision when people come, they put their car keys down and they don't touch them until they leave town. And so they've been using that for a few years. And to hear you say that, I mean, that sort of it does resonate, and I understand that because this uh gentleman, his name's Tom Tishik, and he uh he really believes in that and they're talking about it every year. So uh I think that's gonna even be better now that people can get right down to Skaha Lake Park from the downtown end of Penticton. So yeah.

SPEAKER_00: 31:24

I saw that fuel-free Penticton, foot, pedal, and paddle. There you go. So that's it. Yeah. Let's do it all. Well, Matt, we're gonna leave it there. I just want to put in a plug for the uh the active transportation summit that the BC Cycling Coalition is doing in in partnership with the Ministry of Transportation and Infrastructure, June 18th and 19th in New Westminster. And I'm pretty confident that we will have a session on safe routes to school because as we've thought about advocacy, we thought if you had to start somewhere, as you obviously do, everybody does, um, who can argue against safety and health for kids and clean air and lack of congestion and danger for traffic outside schools? So go for that. Uh, we'll be there with you. And uh thank you so much for telling us your story and all the best. Thanks, Peter.

SPEAKER_01: 32:16

Yeah, thanks so much for reaching out to me.

SPEAKER_00: 32:21

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